THE .................PORT!!!

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2012-06-12a.297.0&s=speaker%3A24777+section%3Adebate#g297.2
Thought this would be thought provoking......because, we are now 2012 and things are changing whether we like it or not...
Personally, I think Dover has not benefitted from a huge Port sitting out to Sea....the powers that be.....have made it the wrong way round and discarded many assets which would have benefitted Dover.....I really hope that more is not discarded....ie....our access to the Pier etc.
Personally, if this Minister, Pennington has come to Dover lately, and is pleased with it all...he needs to live here permanantly for a while..........in the Town, like most of the Councillors who make the wrong decisions.....and do not live in Dover....
The ferries should be on the Western Arm, tied up, with the Railways which was in situ....traffic staight out.....The Cruise Ships etc......on the Eastern Arm...Access to all Tourist facilites etc......and a nice part of the Town the Eastcliff, sorely neglected with its lovely architecture....together with the derelict Tower of Henry V111.....he actually loved Dover....
I feel, these Corporate Men who sit at the Head of Dover Harbour Board, are defunct and the Port is in decline......in spite of them craftily giving themselves pay awards and bonuses...whilst discarding most of the valuable and skilled workforce...but, then what is new....The guys who have been at the top here for the past ten years,, have no interest in Dover, just themselves and a power base, with the propect of a multi-million payoff, in their pockets if the Port is sold....
There is nothing, in Dover to show its huge Maritime History....the dual carriageway has effectively destroyed the Town......just take a walk to the end of Bench Street by the grotty Underpass, and stand there looking towards Snargate Street...and savour it all!!!

Dear Alternative.

A brief look at Dover Port (try Google Earth) will show that there is not enough room in the western part of the harbour for the number of ferry berths needed and adequate maneuvering room for the vessels.

Ro-Ro for trains is no longer viable with the advent of the rail link through the tunnel.

FWIW one of the greater mistakes of recent was the M20 being allowed to enter the town from the west when most of it's users are heading to Eastern Docks necessitating the dreadful dual carriageway which has ruined Snargate Street and split the town from the sea front. The fact that the M20 was pushed through an AONB has precluded the provision of any lorry park within striking distance of Dover.

I spoke at the time at the planning enquiry against the plan, suggesting instead that the M20 should sweep round the back of the town, joining the M2/A2 somewhere between Whitfield and Lydden. This would have used level fairly low grade agricultural land which would have allowed warehousing, freight forwarding, lorry parks etc. alongside and had the potential to bring employment to the area.

The present mess had the full support of the myopic denizens of the Evil Empire who hang out at Harbour House who merely wanted a motorway running directly to the entrance to Eastern Docks in spite of the fact that they well knew the port was incapable of handling the amount of freight/cars pouring remorselessly off it.

How very true Captain Haddock, the M20 should have linked up a lot earlier with the eastern side of Dover and never been allowed to run through the town stopping easy access to the sea front.

Dear JanH, as Erasmus said
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Captain Haddock.....please do go to the Town Hall today, and tomorrow (I think) and visit the
Fakun Gong Art/Practice Exhibition...........I think you would love it....

Anyway, back to the thread..............I feel all the terrible things happened before Social Networking and the inter-change of ideas...........etc....

I am trying to find ways of putting Dover right...............because it has all been wrong!! and we need champions not takers.....................Selfless instead of Selfish..........................

Dear Alternative,

I had already received an personal invitation to visit the Exhibition and was thinking of going along, if only to show support for the movement against the dreadful repression by the Chinese authorities for what seems merely a form of 'Tai Chi with attitude', but am beset at Marlinspike Hall with piles of GCSE Seamanship papers which I must mark.

Whilst fascinated with cults of all sorts from Falun Gong through Scientology to Mormonism I shall stick as a card carrying atheist to the excellent C of E.

As long as I can spend time on occasion surrounded by beautiful architecture, singing hymns with proper tunes, listening to the King James bible and not having to hug the sort of people one would normally avoid on a 'bus I shall stick with it.

Good debate, this one. Personally I blame the town planners from the 50s and 60s who did a far better job of trashing Dover than the Luftwaffe ever did - yes, we still bear the scars of shelling and air strikes (as the Russell Street car park will attest), but the planners took off from where Hitler's boys left it. I'm referring to the carbuncle that is Burlington House (and Townwall Street in general) and that awful concrete monstrosity that BT own next to the Bowling Green behind Maison Dieu House.

If the town's leaders were serious about improving the appearance of the place, they'd raffle off tickets to one lucky winner who could press the button to bring these buildings carshing down. My feeling is that they would have people queuing up to buy them, and with the money raised we could pay to have the fountain opened up for the people to enjoy. Oh dear, there I go with the sarcasm again..............

There's been an excellent series on TV (still on Iplayer here :- BBC Two - The Secret History of Our Streets ) which is continuing and makes you point Fabric Fairy.

All through the 60/70s town planners demolished perfectly serviceable homes and broke up communities in a push for 'modernism', Patrick Abercrombie being one of the most guilty parties.

Abercrombie did rather well out of his years of vandalism being awarded a Knighthood by the grateful nation and earning enough so he would never have to live in one of his dystopian creations, passing away in his rather nice house in the village of Ashton Tirrold, at the foot of the Berkshire Downs.

Indeed the formation of the Deal Society was to fight plans to demolish the area surrounding Middle Street to replace it with a Letraset housing development which was the plan of DDC at that time.

Under the previous administration that obese tongue-tied pugilist John Prescott continued to do the same across Northern England with his Pathfinder housing scheme (no doubt named after the elite night bombing Pathfinder Force of WW11 when one looks at the destruction caused)

I do not think we should apology's for seeing Dover with honest and not sentimental eyes.....

The worrying part about Charlie Elphicks argument is that he appeals to emotions and sentiment....neither of which will hold any sway with the Current bosses of the Harbour Board or any Government...who just talk money/power etc..........However, they always talk expansion of the Port, which has Dover the Town losing out all the time....

The Dual Carriageway is a huge mistake...........it can be addressed and should be ....before anything else takes place....

I give this to you........would such a thing happen in Gloucester (Royals) or Oxfordshire(Politicians)..as has happened to Aylsham and Dover Sea Front...........come on........... or, indeed closer to home St Margaret's!!

There's a rumour that the present board members are hoping for large pay offs when the port finally goes.

With the money they are planning to run a Whelk Stall but are apparently, so far, having trouble with their business plan ..............

PUKE....I ask you to look at the Front Page Photograph on the "other" forum...Dover Forum...and look at the
Dover Harbour Board greeting a "Partnership" between themselves and Taiwan...........this management is managing failure......they have gotten rid of all the loyal employees...the business is contracting....they are trying to sell and privatise something that is not their's to sell..........that has ruined the Town of Dover, and given us nothing except traffic and polution................just look at their smug faces.............it makes me puke...........

This separation of the 2 star town.....with the 5 star port has to stop........it is crazy.........

I think it too easy to be critical of planning and architectural decisions made decades ago. As with all really good architecture, it stands the test of time, that which fails to make the grade is eventually swept away by sometihng "better". "Better", yes, but for how long, and so it goes on. I'm not making excuses for what we now deem poor decisions, but let us at least remember what the architects and planners were trying to improve all those years ago. It's easy to be smart in restrospect, we can all do that and it serves little purpose, other than to make some appear clever.

I for one will be happy to see Burlington House come down, but would I feel the same if it were occupied and hundreds of locals were working in there? Perhaps not. So, what is the real issue with it, architectural design, emptiness, not generating taxes for DDC? We need to see the reality rather than the fanciful on some of these things.

Incidentally, mormonism isn't a cult, it is a worldwide recognised religion, on the same basis as others.

Sid has a point, but the fact is that Burlington House hasn't been occupied for far too long now, and the reason - or my understanding of it - is that it is unfit for purpose in as much as the air conditioning has never worked, the fabric of the building is crumbling and the rents asked for were ridiculously excessive.

I have to disagree with the point about it being a different story if it were occupied and hundreds working there, and I cite the Barbican Centre in London as my case. It's fully occupied, has two theatres, a music school and an old church within its boundaries, it offers employment to hundreds and is a visitor attraction pulling in millions every year...yet it still looks like the prefabricated monstrosity it is, designed no doubt by some famous architect who lives somewhere nice.

1950s, 1960s, the age of concrete, everyone was for it. Dover Stage was award winning at the time !!!!!

I do wonder how much the decsion on the A20 was out of the hands of anyone locally and was pushed by the government at the time?

I have an interesting document I can try to scan of all of the road options....

And, in the 70s, Kipper ties and jacket collars you could land a 747 on; in the post-war decades did we collectively lose our sense of what was tasteful........?

What is the 'fashion' at the time of building will only stand the test of time if it is interesting to look at. If Burlington House had some interesting architetural features instead of being a concrete lump we might even be hoping for its restoration but not the way it looks.

The fifties, sixties and seventies must surely have been one of the worst periods in history for building design. I know many cheaply erected buildings had to go up after the destruction that was done by the war but did they have to be so ugly.

I cant see any of the concrete lumps from the 50s onwards will stand the test of time , from the Royal festival Hall to the Barbican and beyond , They where of thier time but that time has now passed . When I am declared emporer I will pass a law that any archietect or builder who is commisioned to complete a developement that is marketed as either
cutting edge /challenging/exciting will be made to live in it for 3 years after completion ,

BP1, I couldn't disagree more about the Barbican.

An excellent example of well designed high density housing , home to around 4,000 people living in 2,014 flats, and a fantastic concert venue and Arts space, all on a 35 acre site .

An great example of le Corbusier's ideal of a 'machine for living in'.

As an alternative to filling our once green and pleasant land with letraset boxes, such as the proposed developments at Whitfield and Sholden, I think it's got a lot going for it.

We will have to disagree Captain , I dislike it and le Corbusier probably more than any other archiatectural style of the past few centuries , its just not a style I like .